Curse

Spazzer · May 28, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Oh man. If I was still stuck on Eternal Grove I would blow my lid.

Luckilly, I managed to grab someone who was willing to go through it with me. About five or six tries later, we managed to squeek the mission on pure luck.

I'm 100% certain that neither one of us will do Eternal Grove in HM ever again. This will be true of pretty much everyone who does that mission in HM. I would really hate to be the odd man out--the last person in the world who wants to do that mission and cannot.

Traveller · May 28, 2007, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymmina

You don't watch your heroes' DP, enchantment/hex information, keep track of who still has res sigs? I play support characters, and you better believe I do (and wish I could have it for all teammates). There are design limitations as to why we can't control more than 3 heroes, deal with it.

Sure, I watch 'em now and then. But do I constantly need to monitor every hex and enchantment my heroes have? Not really. Henchmen, too, do just fine without me knowing those facts on them.

Then again, I don't play a monk (only class I don't have a character)

And sure, Gaile and ANet seem adamant about not changing the hero limitation. We do have to deal with it, but I don't think we shouldn't voice our opinion on the matter just the same.

william1975 · May 28, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I can understand the decision made before Nightfall came out, 7 heroes would have been rediculous at that time, I managed to complete Factions, with heroes and henchies, at masters, apart from eternal grove and gayla hatchery, where I needed 1 other player with heroes for masters.

I also understand the point of it making the interface unmanagable, I can just keep track of 3 heroes, could possible stretch to 4, but 7 would be impossible.

I also see the reasoning behind this, Anet wants to promote some kind of interplayer activity, and with access to all heroes that would become virtually imposible, as many have noted few pug now, how many would if they introduced 7 heroes to party with.

The main problem that has arisen is twofold. One is the vast amount of area that can be chosen to play in, and the second is the advent of Hard Mode.

Anet have obviously realised that campaigns have diluted the playerbase across too vast a region, this is why the campaign option has be dropped for GW2. Hard Mode was a fantastic idea, unfortunatley it is extremely difficult with the hero/Henchie part to do. PUG's would be ideal if they were commonplace, but with the aforementioned dilution this is a wearisome task, and as many note there is little guarantee of any decent players, let alone 8.

The solution of a global search may help, personally I doubt that, as people probably want to do particular thing with their time, not jump all over the world to different places.

Sadly the easiest option would be to join a dedicated and large PVE guild, one that regualarly devotes time to Hard Mode, or does runs through a Campaign. I myself am in a tiny guild, with my wife alone, we do thing together, and still find it difficult with 2 human 6 heroes, but it is easier. When we get tired of the difficulties we will most likely join a bigger guild.

I just pray that GW2 does not fall into this same trap that GW has, I understand what Gaile and the design team has said and accept it, however a solution would be nice, as this is a rather disturbing problem for the playerbase

Theus · May 28, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by william1975

I can understand the decision made before Nightfall came out, 7 heroes would have been rediculous at that time, I managed to complete Factions, with heroes and henchies, at masters, apart from eternal grove and gayla hatchery, where I needed 1 other player with heroes for masters.

I also understand the point of it making the interface unmanagable, I can just keep track of 3 heroes, could possible stretch to 4, but 7 would be impossible.

I also see the reasoning behind this, Anet wants to promote some kind of interplayer activity, and with access to all heroes that would become virtually imposible, as many have noted few pug now, how many would if they introduced 7 heroes to party with.

The main problem that has arisen is twofold. One is the vast amount of area that can be chosen to play in, and the second is the advent of Hard Mode.

Anet have obviously realised that campaigns have diluted the playerbase across too vast a region, this is why the campaign option has be dropped for GW2. Hard Mode was a fantastic idea, unfortunatley it is extremely difficult with the hero/Henchie part to do. PUG's would be ideal if they were commonplace, but with the aforementioned dilution this is a wearisome task, and as many note there is little guarantee of any decent players, let alone 8.

The solution of a global search may help, personally I doubt that, as people probably want to do particular thing with their time, not jump all over the world to different places.

Sadly the easiest option would be to join a dedicated and large PVE guild, one that regualarly devotes time to Hard Mode, or does runs through a Campaign. I myself am in a tiny guild, with my wife alone, we do thing together, and still find it difficult with 2 human 6 heroes, but it is easier. When we get tired of the difficulties we will most likely join a bigger guild.

I just pray that GW2 does not fall into this same trap that GW has, I understand what Gaile and the design team has said and accept it, however a solution would be nice, as this is a rather disturbing problem for the playerbase

But we have Party Sea-owait.That only covers the outpost you're in.At least it makes finding parties in multiple district mis-owait. There haven't been any multiple district missions since the opening days of Each chapter.And even then,that rarely lasts.

Longasc · May 28, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

The reasoning is pretty shallow.

First, why do we want 7 heroes?

Is really the only reason that we cannot find people for playing hard mode? After all, you only need one friend and you have a full team of heroes.

I think the flawed logic is that you can suddenly do a mission you failed with 4 heroes and 3 henchmen before with 7 heroes.

Nothing wrong with 7 heroes, but it does not solve the "problem" some people seem to have:

1. having not even one friend it seems
2. not being able to do all hard mode missions with heroes and hench

This said, Aurora just needs a trick to be done - let the NPCs guard the last portal and run crystals.
Sanctum Cay can be henched easily, too. Just do the bonus and the mission seperate, makes it much easier.

Sorry, I think 3 heroes is enough to control. 7 are overkill, just clutter the screen. And still do not bring victory. We have only max 2 heroes of a class, you cannot have an optimum build being the only human player. You can talk as much as you want, Henchmen are not so much worse than heroes...

Furthermore, the wish to hench Hard Mode is ridiculous. What's next? Make hard mode easier?

It is perfectly doable, and some people should get over the fact that not everyone can do hard mode or win the monthly tournament or whatever.

semantic · May 28, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Personette

...
As for arguments about 7 heroes being overpowered - well, the same argument applies to 7 competent HUMAN players, and that's obviously encouraged in the game. If you have seven really good human players, yeah, an eighth person can slack off and everyone else will be fine. If you have seven or eight really good human players, PvE is your oyster. How does it makes sense to say that that's good, but having a single human player with 7 heroes in the same situation is bad?
...

This is a fair question, but I think there is a reasonable answer to it. When I finish a mission or area with a good team of all players, it's often hard to say who exactly contributed what, but there is always a general feeling of satisfaction at having been part of an organized group that worked well together under pressure. That feeling of satisfaction exists for a reason. It's generally difficult to coordinate 8 people in the often frantic environment of high end PVE areas. That's why you see cookie-cutter teams in all high end PVE, not because nuking and SS are the best tactics.

What's more, it is often possible to make up for a lack of coordination between 8 skill bars with coordinated execution. GW PVE seems to be designed with this in mind. The Red Dots are given a set of skills and behaviors to work with. Very good, hard counters to those skills are available to players, but if players bring something other than the hard counters, good coordination while employing other tactics can see them through. This works because Red Dot skillsets are limited, and generally not dual-class.

The fundamental problem of coordination (both before and during a fight) is removed for a 1 + 7 Hero team. As it stands, you can set 4 dual-class bars, and if you plan on using henchmen to fill out the team, you usually have to make a few compromises. You can make up for those compromises with tactics and execution. If you could set all 8, not only would you not be forced to make compromises, you would have plenty of room left over for 'throw-away' skills, or slots that you left blank or intentionally disabled (because you only brought a particular hero or two for access to 3 or 4 skills from your available pool, and you don't want them wasting time or energy on something unnecessary). Tactics and performance would become irrelevant. Every fight would be AI (fixed and limited on the side of Red Dots) vs. AI (flexible and essentially unlimited for heroes), with the winner a foregone conclusion. I just don't think PVE is designed to challenge that level of coordination, otherwise it would be impossible to master with anything less.

Lord Natural · May 28, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

I'm starting to think 7 heroes in HM might be reasonable. Been playing through Tyria and NF missions on HM, and though the early missions were pretty easy, it's getting to be a real pain as I reach the last couple of missions. I have no doubt that it's still possible with the current H&H setup, but it can be pretty frustrating nonetheless. I can't remember the last time I saw a HM group forming. There were a couple doing great northern wall, the day HM came out, I think.

btw has anybody gotten the Guardian titles in Elona and Tyria with just H&H? I'll feel better knowing it's been done at least

Tarun · May 28, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Approximately 15 heroes, and we can only use three. gg...

Hyper Cutter · May 28, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Approximately 15 heroes, and we can only use three. gg...

And GW:EN will just give us more...

Edge Martinez · May 28, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

The reasoning is pretty shallow.
...
Furthermore, the wish to hench Hard Mode is ridiculous. What's next? Make hard mode easier?

It is perfectly doable, and some people should get over the fact that not everyone can do hard mode or win the monthly tournament or whatever.

QFT.

And yes, we can only use 3 heroes.

I mean seriously... know what? I have dozens of skills. I want to be able to use all of them all the time. Why just 8? That's so limiting. Furthermore, I want to use all 12 heroes. Yep... all 12. On top of that, I don't think it's right that I lug around 3 swords and 2 shields. I want to be able to have a shield strapped on each arm, a sword in each hand, and my minipet can wield the third one. And once you do all that, I'll find something else to moan about when I could have been playing the game.

Lord Oranos · May 28, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Why on gods earth do you want to play with bots? I thought this was online for a reason?

Amy Awien · May 28, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Regarding the interface argument when using seven heroes ... it could remain the same as it is now, you would just use 4 heroes for the spots that are now filled up with henchmen and you'd use the regular henchman controls.

Spazzer · May 28, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Approximately 15 heroes, and we can only use three. gg...

Despite my annoyances with this news, I don't think "900 skills, only 8 can be used at once" is an unfair thing to say in reply to this.

garethporlest18 · May 28, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

Why on gods earth do you want to play with bots? I thought this was online for a reason?

Because bots are better/friendlier/not as stupid.. as most players. That's why.

I've been wanting 7 hero's for a long time, it'd be nice to have me be able to set up all the builds myself, instead of having 4 henchies. Only place I will PUG is FoW, otherwise ya'll can fall down some stairs, I'm not gonna play with you, I've dealt with too much stupidity in PUG groups (mostly in FoW), that I quit them unless I need them for the missions. I will admit sometimes you get cool people, but that's rare.

Oh and I use this game as a chat room and will continue to do so. A lot more fun than actually playing now. Haha.

Oh and, no the game will not be easier (who gives a flying rats tail if it's easier for a few people) for the majority of folks with 7 heroes. Not for me at least, I play a warrior and I'm pretty certain other classes have it a lot easier than us, for the most part. Cause of the certain heroes we have to take.

D8tura · May 29, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

I party with my guildies and their heroes for the simple fact that most of the people are hard to play with without resorting to name calling (eg n00b) the first time the group runs into trouble. PUG's are a fate worse then 60 DB

I can see the argument that no one will group with 7 heroes

Jetdoc · May 29, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Yes, because there are always 8 people looking for Eternal Grove HM or Hell's Precipace HM. The fact that people would want to do these missions solo with 7 Heroes means that they are idiots and anti-social. [/blatantsarcasm]

All you need is one other person. 2 real people + 6 heroes...

Theus · May 29, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

All you need is one other person. 2 real people + 6 heroes...

Whats the problem with eliminating that human element and giving us the ability to use 7 heroes then?

Qual · May 29, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

7 heroes = lame, buy a single player game....

Theus · May 29, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

7 heroes = lame, buy a single player game....

Right.Because everyone is pugging in this game.Thats exactly why we needed a thread like this.

There was FAR to much pugging in the game.

Far to much.

You ROFL'ed my COPTER by the way.

Tarun · May 29, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Main reason a lot of people want 7 hero usage instead of 3 is because it's rare/next to impossible to find people to do anything Hard Mode with you.

Heroes are better than hench, and I'd rather take heroes with me than hench, especially when I can't find players who have a similar goal.